Transcript
0:08
Welcome back to another episode of the Maple Dragon Podcast.
I am your host Mark Robson.
Last week we had begun talking about the realities of Xinjiang with fellow teacher, researcher and traveler from Colombia, Fernando Munoz Bernal.
0:32
The second-half of the interview, where we discussed the Western media’s portrayal of Xinjiang and how it is skewed to suit a certain narrative that has little to do with the truth.
Let’s pick up the conversation where we left off.
0:51
And the other thing I was thinking of, I’m not sure if people have a sense of how large Shinjang is.
Can you give us a picture of just how large it actually is?
Well, it’s.
Like it’s this is one of the issues that is also.
1:09
Yeah.
It’s about a third the size of Europe.
It’s about a third the size of Europe.
France, Germany.
Yeah, Switzerland.
About that.
That big?
Um.
And and that leads to something that a lot of people don’t understand and that is used again China and I guess Xinjiang said like, oh.
1:33
The idea of forced labour or the idea of separation of children?
It’s a very big area.
With only 24,000,000 inhabitants, of which the vast majority are in a few.
Clusters in a few cities with large numbers of people.
1:54
But most of Sinjang has a very low population density.
So there’s there’s towns and villages with. 2000 people, 3000 people, 10,000 people.
So.
When they are trying to.
2:12
Implement poverty alleviation, which was a challenge in Xinjiang.
You gotta consider.
That fact the size, how do you give better education to people?
You have two options.
2:27
You can build a school in every village, every town, every little place, yeah.
But how many students are there that are from grade one?
Are there 5 students?
What about grade two?
2:43
Others?
No.
Students from grade two?
What about grade three?
Others 10 So.
You can either build the schools in every single one of these places and give them whatever education you can right with one teacher or two teachers covering.
All the different grades and all the different subjects because you spread very thin right?
3:05
Your resources or you can build larger schools.
With more teachers, more resources, better facilities and.
Bring the students to these schools.
3:22
Now.
That’s actually what takes place in Xinjiang, and it takes place all over China when you think about it.
Offering room and board to the students is very normal in China.
But people see that as they’re taking their children away from their parents, they go to get a better education, better quality education, and they have to do it by going there from Monday to Friday sometimes with the distances are so big.
3:55
I mean there’s towns that could be fifty 100 kilometres one from the other.
Well, are you going to be going back and forth every weekend?
That might not be possible.
So kids sometimes go for a term or they have like a a break, you know, you have the all the main holiday break or they have the October break.
4:16
So they might go home during those breaks during the summer, right.
So the kids are gone for a couple of months at a time in some cases.
Because that is the most cost effective way to provide the better education they can get.
4:35
It is just that simple and the same is applicable to.
To the population.
That.
There was easily indoctrinated when you think about indoctrination, people who don’t have jobs and who don’t have an education, don’t have a skill are the easiest to to indoctrinate, right.
5:02
So one of the projects and one of the things went, OK, let’s give these people the training that they need, the education that they need, the vocational education that they need.
So they taught them skills about cooking or working in hotels, or welding, or or construct, whatever.
5:21
Skill.
They they they thought would be ideal, was offered to these population.
In the same circumstance, low density population.
Population spread all over the region.
5:37
So look, this is the place where we’re going to give you the training so they would gather the people.
Send them to these places for a year, for ten months, for whatever amount of time there it was necessary.
Give them the training, teach them the skills and in addition to that.
5:58
Finding jobs within the region.
Or in other parts of China and help them to find places of employment.
It’s, it’s.
These are all positives.
6:15
These are all positive things that are helping people to generate.
Other sources of income other than just farming or herding.
And he’s changing the lives of, of, of, of the people in Xinjiang.
Obviously Western pundits, politicians.
6:35
News agencies, they look at that, they look how different it is from their countries and they criticize us and they they turn it into human rights abuses, forced labour, it said.
I asked people.
How do you think the coastal areas of China developed?
6:54
When China opened up in 1979, how do you think Guangdong became what Guangdong is today?
Do you think there were millions and millions and millions of people in Guangdong?
No, there were tiny villages of 20,030 thousand people.
7:16
But all the talent was brought to these areas.
They were official government projects to bring skilled, talented workers to the region.
To give them opportunities and to develop Guangdong that way.
7:33
So this idea of mobilizing.
Talent.
Labour.
It’s existed in China since for 40 years.
And nobody has had any issues with that.
None of those Westerners who came here to set up factories or who came here to trade or to build OEM, nobody complained about that.
7:59
Nobody had any issue thinking, oh, this is forced labour.
These people have been mobilized against their will.
They were making billions.
From this particular scheme and this happened all over China, it happening in the East Coast, it happened in some areas England, Hangzhou.
8:22
Hold these industrialized areas.
Developed that way but now.
Is taking place in Xinjiang and there are these issues with.
Dark forces from America that are intent into stabilizing Xinjiang.
8:42
So when they’re doing the same in Xinjiang now it’s an issue when it took place for decades in places like Guangdong and forget about it, it’s fine.
Just more profit for us.
So people don’t.
Don’t.
8:57
Don’t remember the history of China.
And don’t.
Don’t want to accept that this is something, this is the way that China has developed different regions of China and they do anything since.
So what do you think?
9:18
Of these people in the West, sort of Orthodox groups in Western countries where certain individuals are come forward claiming to be wiggers.
Do you think that those are genuine or completely made-up, or or is the reality somewhere in between?
9:41
Look, I I haven’t looked at every single one of the people who claim things.
But I’ve looked at a few.
Um.
One of them was Um.
I forgot her name.
9:59
Terseness.
She gave an interview in 2019 to BuzzFeed.
And she said.
It was.
There was no physical harm.
There was no.
No, no, she she went abroad.
10:16
I think she’s in America, if I’m not mistaken.
But she was a wigger and and and she claimed that she went to UM.
Vocational Training Centre.
And.
She claims first that nothing happened.
10:34
That it was just the worst thing was not being able to access her phone. 2020 or 2021 BBC interviewed her and now she said that she was kicked and that she became Baron and that she she had been tortured.
10:55
That’s what she said to the BBC 2020 or the next year?
So her she.
BBC comes back and interviews her.
And now her story was daily gang rapes.
So.
I mean, I mean, so check, how do you deal with that?
11:16
How do you, how do you expect somebody to be believed when this is what they’re telling you?
There’s another There’s another case in a recent paper published by Adrian Sansom.
Labour, what he calls a slave labour or or force mobilization of of work.
11:38
There’s this lady who says.
That.
Her mother was sent to prison because she went to to study and live in Turkey.
And she says that.
11:55
Since then, she’s seen her mother three times.
So it begs the question.
If her mother went to prison because she.
Went to Turkey.
How did she see her mom three times?
12:13
Where?
If she was in prison, she must have come back to see Jiang.
And she was the one who actually they were after, so to speak, right.
How does that happen?
But the best part of her testimony?
12:30
This is a testimony that she gave at what is called the Uighur Tribunal, which is not a tribunal, it’s just an LLC.
In in in the UK, but anyway her testimony.
Actually says that in 2020, I think.
12:47
She registered for a master’s degree in Beijing.
She was the reason why her mother was in prison, according to her, but she saw her three times.
Jiang and now she registered for her masters degree in Beijing.
13:07
How?
How does that add up?
How does that add up?
And this testimony is used by Adrian Saenz.
To to try to demonstrate that there is forced labour in Xinjiang.
13:23
This is a researcher with a degree from Cambridge University at PhD from Cambridge University.
How Cambridge hasn’t rescinded his PhD.
When they see the kind of research that he does.
He’s using this lady in her document.
13:43
And that’s the actual testimony that she gave, a testimony that makes absolutely no sense.
So look.
As I said, I haven’t reviewed every single witness, but most of the witnesses that you see.
14:00
These stories are difficult to they don’t add up.
They don’t add up.
But the most important thing to ask is all those people who are out there speaking.
How did they leave China?
If China tortured them, it China abused them.
14:20
If China did horrible things to them in prison.
Why would China give them a passport and let them leave?
I mean, what do you know what I mean?
Why would it make it easy for them to go out and tell that story?
14:40
You know what I’m saying?
Or is there an incentive in the West?
For them to tell stories.
The police officer.
That that was interviewed by CNN’s Ivan Watson.
14:56
He was the same police officer that also gave a testimony during the week of Congress.
In the Wigan Congress is is like, oh, I was not in charge of of UM.
Of torturing or anything that was not my department talking to Watson, to Ivan Watson, like Oh yeah, we did this and we did that and this was took place like.
15:19
First, you said that.
You were not part of that.
And in the second interview, you’re describing the details and and telling people how that took place, the torture and the rape and the whatnot.
Make it make sense.
15:35
Make it make sense.
So that’s all I have to say.
Yeah.
I have seen so much evidence of lies.
And and and and twisting of stories by media by, by.
15:52
These witnesses.
Hmm.
That that’s what I present to people.
I’ll give you one last example.
Bloomberg They did its story on the polysilicon industry of Xinjiang.
16:09
Which is what is used to make solar panels.
Which then was sanctioned by America.
And nobody’s buying CJM solar panels anymore in America.
They went.
In the middle of COVID to Sinjang.
16:28
And they went to these factories trying to interview people and workers in these factories.
But because it’s covered.
That we’re not allowed to see anybody.
They showed the reason like, look, it’s COVID, you cannot come into the factory, it’s a risk.
16:50
So in the video, they said.
Unfortunately, we did not speak to anybody at any of these factories.
But what is the conclusion of that piece by Bloomberg?
If you buy solar panels from Sinjang, they may be tainted.
17:08
By Forced Labour.
You didn’t talk to anybody.
But they may be tainted.
Now how can you call that journalism, and I take it one step further, Mark, in that same bit in that same.
17:25
Short 10 minute piece that they did.
They invited an expert.
Some lady.
Via Internet call and she says in that video.
There is little evidence that there is forced labour of in the polysilicon industry in India.
17:47
So the expert that they bring onto the show says there’s just little evidence.
But the conclusion of the pieces are it could be, and that’s the thing.
They are masters of the English language.
18:03
They.
Field there.
Stories and and articles and videos with.
Language of uncertainty.
But the regular people doesn’t doesn’t catch this.
They just hear genocide.
They just hear human rights abuse.
18:20
Forced labour they don’t hear.
Could be maybe?
Might be perhaps, likely, probably.
They don’t hear that and that’s what they feel these accusations with.
So.
It’s.
Hmm.
18:37
It’s it’s what we’re dealing with, is with China is dealing with is what Xinjiang is dealing with.
And and it’s, it’s what I try to tell people engage your brain.
And and listen to what’s taking place.
And and.
Come and see by yourself.
18:54
Come and see by yourself is Spend time in Xinjiang.
Talk to people.
See the people.
Enjoy the culture.
See.
The diversity see the cohesion, the harmony of the people.
And and and draw your own opinion.
I can show you.
19:11
So many examples of lies and misinformation.
The only ways for you to come here.
The best ways for you to come here and experience yourself.
Hmm.
Now you spoke of harmony, and it almost seems like maybe that’s really what China’s whole approach has been just, you know, markedly different from a Western approach in dealing with terrorism.
19:42
I guess using technology instead of, I don’t know, hunting down terrorists with weapons.
Um, just using technology to check people who anyone who’s suspicious.
And so that seems that it’s just such a different approach to dealing with tourism, not one that the West is familiar with.
20:08
And it just looks so alien that I don’t know.
People get suspicious, I guess.
Do you think And?
Especially when, I mean, it’s fascinating you’re saying, you know, these sanctions that were used to protect the weighers actually cause the Uighurs to kind of get suspicious in the West, suspicious and talking to reporters that misrepresent what’s going on and then causing other Chinese to support them sort of replace the Western customers and so creating greater harmony within China.
20:47
It’s almost like the sanctions backfired in a way.
The the thing with with Xinjiang is that there’s there’s another component that becomes very.
Touchy is religion.
Is, is.
The idea that.
21:05
Islam is the root of the problem.
That’s what China does not want.
That’s what China does not do.
You can practice any religion you want in China, as long as it’s a it’s a religion, that is.
21:25
Registered and affiliated to the state, The state knows what’s taking place.
Because you see right in the video, for example, from Islam Totti in a classroom supporting terrorists.
Now imagine the power.
Of of of being inside a church, being inside a synagogue, being inside a mosque and delivering.
21:51
Messages that are dangerous for people.
The government has to know what’s taking place and when you look at religion.
There’s only two possibilities.
Either.
You a deer?
To the idea that we come from a deity, we come from a God.
22:11
That we are the result of.
The creation by a God and as such.
Mankind is subservient to religion.
There’s, there’s.
There’s there’s a need to to respect and and and.
22:31
LED religious organizations do what they do because.
That’s that’s the the premise or.
You believe or think that a religion is a man made creation.
22:50
It’s something that.
Humans created.
To explain the unexplained.
I, I, I, I like to talk about the people from my part of the the world.
The natives you used to worship.
23:08
The sun, the moon, the stars, the rain, the harvest.
The things that we’re real.
When there’s Spaniards came at gunpoint, they got into believing the invisible guy in the sky.
That took place.
23:25
That’s the power of religion and that’s.
That’s a a gulf between.
Different countries and different ways of looking at religion if it’s a man made creation.
It’s something.
23:42
That.
Mankind can regulate.
Is something that mankind can.
Determine the limits and this functioning and its operation is not divine, it’s, it’s.
24:00
It’s Mundial.
Is is from.
We created it.
So we have every right to establish guardrails and guidelines.
So that gulf between.
The way some countries look at religion and the way.
24:19
China looks at religion.
You can believe in whatever you want, but we will.
Control it.
We will know what’s taking place and we will establish parameters for these churches and and and different religions to operate.
24:37
In order to keep harmony.
So what China does it it it focuses on the.
The harmonizing.
Religions with the tenets of the country, and this is something that doesn’t sit well with other countries.
24:58
It’s it’s they see it as, oh, there’s no freedom of worship in China.
There’s no freedom of religion.
Is the same as capitalism in China.
You can be a billionaire.
But the state, the government will tell you whether you can do this or not, because that will be.
25:21
That would negatively affect the people.
So even in capitalism you see that the government creates parameters, limitations and and and guidelines for for things to coexist and to live.
In a way, that everybody.
25:39
IS IS is unaffected negatively by these things.
Religion is no different.
And and and that’s that’s where the people.
Don’t understand.
So they like the term sinicization of Islam.
25:56
As in, like, oh, they’re twisting his lamb to make it just Chinese, no.
They are making sure that.
Islam follows the tenets of China, mainly harmony.
Is that simple?
26:12
Hmm.
But again, people don’t want to have that discussion.
They look at it as, oh, there’s no freedom of religion in China.
That played a very important role in Jiang as well.
It’s kind of interesting because that’s all the Western perspective, because all these Western countries have accused China of the genocide and so on.
26:33
But you wonder why?
Why haven’t the Muslim countries, you know, like Saudi Arabia and so on, a lot of these countries have been praising China for the way they’re dealing with the, you know, weaker issue or the terrorism that they were dealing with.
So that’s what makes it suspicious too.
26:51
Like other countries that, you know, are dominated by Islam are not, you know, lambasting China.
They’re actually being more supportive.
It’s also important.
To to to think about the language that we use.
Because.
27:08
What China did was not.
Attacked the wiggers.
What China this was attacked the terrorists.
Very important to.
Understand that.
There are Uighurs who are Muslims and they are Uighurs who are in Muslims.
27:27
They are Muslims who are in Wigger.
They’re Kazakh who are Muslims.
They are who we that are Muslim there, there’s so many.
So this was.
Not.
Something done against the weaker.
This was something done against terrorists regardless of their nationality, the the, the ethnicity or no.
27:49
That this was something.
Done against terrorists and.
As I said.
Not all Uighurs.
Are Muslims.
Not all Muslims are Uighurs.
But yeah.
All terrorists are terrorists, right?
28:05
Right.
Like no country wants terrorists on their soil.
So that’s where these other Muslim countries share the issue with China, where they have terrorists too.
There’s a there’s there’s an issue of the damage that has been done.
28:24
By Western media.
It all started with BBC.
When they went to visit these um.
Vocational training centres, OK.
That we’re somehow a response to the problem with indoctrination and radicalization, right?
28:42
Idle minds that are easy to manipulate.
So when the BBC?
Went there, they were shown like this is what we’re doing, this is what we’re trying to deal with, this is what we and they completely twisted.
These projects and these programs.
28:59
So.
And it hasn’t stopped right the the.
Everybody.
Talks in language that is designed to vilify.
What China is doing?
29:16
There are presents in Xinjiang.
Why wouldn’t there be?
But now they’re.
Concentration camps.
And I asked.
People, what is the difference between a prison and a concentration camp when you look at it?
From a satellite like the people from ASPI have done their written report, Aspies, the Australian Strategic.
29:42
Program for.
I forgot.
The the entire name.
But they actually have taken photos of things that are just the schools or factories, and they all have this discontent.
And dormitories.
29:59
So many.
Of them were actually just factories or schools, and there’s a lot.
This is a prison.
Did not, they didn’t say prison.
This is a concentration camp.
So how could you tell?
The difference between a person and a concentration camp when you look at it from.
Above.
30:16
Impossible.
Deal only way is.
If people who have been in those places.
Tell you what took place now.
Who goes to a prison?
Somebody who broke.
30:31
The law.
Somebody who committed.
A crime?
Somebody who’s not happy that he got caught, somebody who has a garage, so once they go out.
They start telling a story there is 00 evidence of.
30:52
All these are stories that I’m told about.
The genocide and the forced labour and the cultural genocide, That’s the most recent one.
That’s absolutely ridiculous.
Um.
And and and what I try to do is I try to explain to people.
31:10
The simple.
Logic behind these things.
I OK when when people leave Sinjang, right?
Some of these people that went to prison, for example.
How did they leave China?
I mean, did they cross?
The border illegally.
31:28
And if so, why weren’t they deported when they were found in another country?
Or did they leave China?
Via immigration.
With a passport.
And a visa issued by a consulate or an embassy that it’s doesn’t exist in Xinjiang.
31:47
How did these people leave the country?
Or were they extracted?
By special.
Forces.
Again, you got a.
Question Who’s telling you these stories?
Right now, as to people and as I was saying, the damage done by Western media is that.
32:10
People are.
Afraid or a foreigner with a camera?
Nobody.
Police doesn’t stop you there.
Nobody stops you from shooting anything or from filming anything.
None of that happens, but when you want to talk to people.
32:26
They don’t know who you are.
They don’t.
They don’t know.
Mean by Do you understand?
So there’s that.
There’s that very real.
Fear not of the government.
Pay attention.
32:42
They’re not afraid of the government, they’re afraid of.
What this foreigner is going to do with this information?
How is he going to twist this information?
That is going to be used to hurt our people, to hurt our industry, to hurt our employment, to hurt, to hurt us.
33:04
So.
That makes it difficult to actually sit down and talk to people.
They don’t know who you are.
They don’t know why.
You’re there.
They don’t.
But they know that people have been there and people have lied and people have twisted what they’ve said and what they’ve seen.
33:25
So why would they talk to you?
No.
Having said that.
You can get a sense.
Of how people feel about things just by talking to them About very indirect questions.
33:42
Yeah.
Oh, how old are you?
Where do you live?
Oh, where do you study?
What do you study?
Um.
Do you live near here?
How long does it take you to go to school?
Like you get information just by by asking simple questions.
33:59
Do you know what I mean?
What does your mom do?
What does your father do?
Oh, really?
Like without without actually asking direct questions as saying, hey, what about the terrorism?
What about the programs of?
You don’t need to ask those questions to get a feel for.
34:18
How they live and and how they feel about.
Their country.
I had a very interesting talk with a couple of girls.
Because they asked, OK, when they get to know you, right, they’re trying to talk to you and say, like, oh, so you’re a foreigner.
34:34
Do you like China?
Said Like, yeah, yeah, I like China very much.
What about you?
And.
The answer is like, of course we like China.
We’re Chinese.
What silly question.
Are you asking?
Do you know what I mean?
34:50
There’s there’s there’s ways of getting a sense for for who they are, what they are and how they feel about things that.
It’s not a direct question.
It’s not a.
It’s not an.
Invasive kind of situation, but yes, understanding the damage that media did.
35:10
To the openness of the Cijan people.
Hasn’t been talked.
About not many people think about that.
I don’t know this foreigner and what he’s going to do with this information or this images.
Right.
So so.
35:26
It’s sad.
Yeah, I wasn’t.
There.
I wasn’t there.
As a journalist, I’m not.
I’m not going there.
How to say I’m?
Not there, too, doing to be doing the homework of a journalist or a newspaper.
35:45
And they’re to see how they live and what they do and how they do it and.
And that contradicts.
A lot of what these other people say, I’m not doing their homework, I’m not doing their job.
I’m just showing people.
And uh.
36:03
It’s a.
It’s interesting because I have asked so many people, do you want to talk about my experience?
I mean journalists who would like to talk about my experience, who would like to interview me, who would like to know what I saw, what I.
36:21
How did we?
Get in touch.
How did you and I get?
Much.
People would like to know.
I saw and this guy.
Has a podcast.
Would you be interested to talk to me?
Nobody touches me.
Nobody wants to talk to me.
36:40
At all because it just.
It destroys their stories, destroys the narrative and I’m not media and I’m not the government and I’m just the guy travelling, self funded.
Around an area that they’re trying to to present in a way that I can demonstrate is not so.
37:01
And there are many videos that have made about this many videos.
There’s this guy saying that oh, in Xinjiang, you cannot say Assalam Alaikum.
Like, what the heck?
Are you talking about?
So I whip up my phone going to a restaurant, say as alarm.
Alekum Malakham.
37:17
Salam Alekum.
But people?
Believe these things because they’re coming from.
And Dios in Washington DC.
America.
America implemented.
37:34
The the original Bri as I like to call it.
To deal with terrorism, bomb, ransack, and invade.
China has its belt.
And Rd.
Initiative America had their own original Bri.
37:51
And and I I guess that that’s the biggest issue.
The enemies.
That America created.
Around the Muslim world in the way they treated.
The terrorist.
Problem The terrorist issues.
38:08
Um.
That’s coming home to.
Roost.
I mean that’s that’s that’s gonna hate America back.
Because it’s been.
Decades and decades of.
Destroying countries, families, lives.
38:27
And that.
Only generates hate.
That only generates a desire, a desire for revenge.
So you can see how that.
As.
38:43
Tactful as it was possible China approached the situation of terrorism.
Trying to, trying.
To not generate these feelings of.
Animosity towards these corrections that needed to be implemented.
39:02
And and.
That’s what I try to showcase when I travel people.
People are one.
With the police, they’re they’re, they don’t.
They trust the police.
They respect the police.
They they feel.
39:18
As Chinese, as any other Chinese person.
So I guess he couldn’t get into conversations about how the locals felt it because it sounds very paternalistic what China did.
And you wonder, did they ever kind of work with local weigers or have a discussion?
39:40
Was there any kind of discussions about with government on like the best way to deal with the terrorism issue?
Aware of that I I don’t have that information.
But.
Um.
Basically, basically, the way that I know how the government operates in other things, there’s always.
40:05
Ideas that are put forth and they all get reviewed, they all get checked, they all get modified according to the development of the projects we we often hear about.
Oh, China reformed this and this reform and that reform and this other reform, you’re.
40:26
And that’s what China does.
They implement things and then they feel, oh, this is working, this is not working.
Yeah, let’s change it.
That’s your reform and weird.
Where does the feedback come from?
Talking to people?
40:43
Just getting feedback from the people, the the the people who like to say that that there’s there’s no democracy in China.
They don’t understand how China really works.
China has a way of electing its leaders by representation.
41:03
The person in this community is going to choose the leader of that community.
She’s not really voting for.
Are we going to send a Rover to Mars?
This person in this community is not.
This farmer is not voting for, oh, are we going to build a dam in the Three Gorges?
41:23
No, she’s voting for her local issues.
And that’s what matters to her.
Is this person going to look after my interest?
Is she going to help me with irrigation?
Is she going to help me with my crop?
Is he going to help me join the e-commerce and and so that’s what they’re concerned about.
41:42
They’re not concerned with big issues.
But then, that leader.
Has to deliver, and it delivers.
And then he gets promoted to a higher level, to a county level, to a prefecture level, to a a city level, to a provincial level.
42:01
That meritocracy and that election by representation only.
What is your immediate scope of influence?
Many people in the West don’t understand and the issues that matter the most to you, right?
42:23
So it’s it’s something that a lot of Westerners don’t understand.
But there are elections in China.
People go and vote for that one or for that one, and they choose the one that can deliver the best results and the best solutions to their problems.
42:40
The other side of the mercy in China is what I was just telling you, is the consultative part, the listening to the people, the issues.
That you know, you can Google how many reforms there are each year in China and you gotta understand that the only way that a reform.
42:58
Can.
Be and exist.
If there is feedback, if there’s somebody saying this is working, this is not working, we gotta change this, we gotta change that.
China reforms at a speed that makes your head spin.
43:16
Everything is constantly changing.
Everything is going, you know is being redrafted or redrawn and Reds you.
You see it all the time when you feel it.
For example, your application for UM work permit this year is.
43:35
There’s something different.
This year, there’s something different.
Every year is, is is something different, something that is changing, something that is right.
And that’s the same with everything.
You want to buy a car or this or different.
These things have changed.
All you want to buy a house or this is changing.
43:52
It’s always changing.
From where?
Where do these changes come from?
From people who have voiced concerns and problems and issues and then device solutions.
Nothing.
Nothing changes, said China’s speed out there in the world, yeah.
44:13
Yeah, that’s that’s my sense too.
They’re definitely constant change since I’ve been working here.
I’m amazed, you know, I’ve just had some really last minute changes that I’m sure would never happen in the West.
It just seems a different mentality here where yeah, you have to be aware, like everything could change tomorrow and you have to adapt so.
44:37
So anyway, so you don’t have, you have no idea if there’s any consultation, but what you do know is you went to jump after the.
Fact and and people seemed happy and I cannot prove it but my experience living in China tells me there must have been.
44:59
Yeah, there was a bit.
OK, Yeah.
Yeah.
But I mean, you the result is you met people that seem happy, genuinely happy and they might look back and think that was a difficult period and maybe they have some, you know, some issues with how it was done.
45:21
But you know, the result has been quite good and maybe it was worth it, you know so.
Hmm.
Yeah, must have been really interesting.
It’s.
That’s, that’s that’s what I can share the result, yeah.
45:40
And and and some of the explanations of how we got to where we are.
Um.
Again, I’m not a journalist and I’m not an expert.
I’m just a guy with a camera walking around showing people and talking to people.
45:58
So the people.
I was just thinking, you have a Chinese wife, right?
Like, was there any different interactions with her versus you?
Did you like, did she?
Have any stories or self of how people talk to her or treated her differently or?
46:16
No.
OK.
No, it’s just that that we are, we’re always together.
So we’re kind of like seeing like an entity so so and the eyes go to the the eyes go to the the unusual So boom.
46:32
Right.
The that’s the first thing, right.
Many people many people are you are you would tell my wife are you his translator?
Are you her tour guide as well as my husband.
So there was this, They would see us together because we were always together and and they would talk to her.
46:55
So like, what are you to him?
And then from there just the conversation became just social, just just getting to know people.
Yeah, getting to know what their lives are about and what they do and whatnot.
So given that you’ve traveled, I mean you didn’t get to go through all the provinces of China, but I believe the majority, right, the vast majority.
47:23
So can you summarize how she’ll still have a year to go?
Oh, OK.
OK.
So you definitely can, But at this point, can you summarize how Shinjang was different from the other provinces?
I mean, the security, we definitely got that.
47:41
There’s more.
Here or it’s more enforced, but you Nan also has enforcement.
Um, like, other than that?
Yep.
I mean, I guess they’re different ethnic groups, but.
It’s huge.
47:58
Ohhh how are they different?
Yeah, just just.
Life is hard.
Life is hard in the desert.
It’s it’s challenging, it’s difficult.
It it creates a certain kind of human being.
48:17
It creates a human being that is resourceful is it creates a human being that is grateful.
It’s a human being that’s hardworking.
It’s a human being that you.
They’re not soft.
They’re not soft people, OK, so you, You.
48:38
Don’t find this, this the tough people.
Mentally, physically, they’re tough people because they deal with with, with with an environment that is very difficult to to live in.
It’s it’s it’s it’s an environment that can kill you if you don’t have a plan BC or D if you’re not careful.
49:00
So that makes them unique, that appreciation of life.
You know how they celebrate the music, the colour, the food, that?
They’re very, very unique in that, in that respect.
49:18
In that sense, that’s how I would say that there are different people.
Have a different outlook in life.
If that if that explains it.
OK.
Yeah, no, the path that gives me.
49:34
To the Path to Prosperity, It’s a.
It’s a It’s harder even for the government trying to implement poverty alleviation, right?
You see highways, you see bridges, you see tunnels.
49:51
And you’re like, how on earth did they build this 50 degrees Celsius with sandstorms and how?
Do you know what I’m saying?
They’re, they’re, they’re tough people.
50:08
It must be.
More integrated with the rest of China now than maybe in history, you know, with all this infrastructure.
Yes, because it’s so.
Remote Yes, now there is high speed rail.
Does high speed rail, There’s this airports all over.
50:28
I was in Karami and they just built a new airport the the day that I was there.
The week that I was there, they just opened a new airport.
Um, there’s interesting.
So many museums.
It’s very important for them to.
50:47
Yeah, To tell the story of the Silk Road.
To tell the story of the differences that they had, The evolution of unity, um, how they agreed to be part of China through the through the centuries because it meant prosperity for them.
51:11
Um, when they were just tribes and whatnot, right?
When talking centuries ago.
So yeah, seeing.
Seeing so many, The importance to teach and remember their history, where they came from, and where they are now.
51:29
Um, I appreciated that.
And one of the first places that we hate is let’s go to the to the museum to learn the story of this place to learn some of the.
The way that they became who they are, water management, oh man, that’s a whole whole other podcast.
51:52
They devised techniques to bring irrigation and water from the glaciers in the north to so many areas in the desert in the South.
That you’ve never heard of it.
Wow.
52:08
So it’s yeah, it’s very interesting to see how how they have been able to to prosper and and and live in a place that’s so, so difficult, so tough, particularly the South, hmm.
Oh, wow.
52:24
So you did you actually get into the desert areas?
I haven’t heard you talk about the desert so much more.
The mountains.
Yes, Yes, Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Desert areas disorders many, many desert areas and most of the highways run through the deserts.
52:43
Um, we had a couple of incidents.
For example we were going from Hami to Turpan just entering Sindian from Sichuan and as we were on the highway there was a sandstorm and and the police said like sorry, it’s just not safe you need to turn around and go back to Hami.
53:02
That was to me, was like from never experienced A sandstorm of that magnitude.
Like the whole car.
Everything was shaking on the highway.
There were some guys in in in motorcycles, like adventure motorcycles or touring motorcycles.
You could see them at 45 degrees trying to handle the gusts of wind on a highway, so that was a an eye opening experience.
53:29
There is.
There’s an area of the desert where you actually need to.
Register to go in.
It’s hundreds of kilometers and there’s no Rd.
It’s just just a path on the on the sand.
53:49
Too easy to get lost.
So you need to register and and they need to know how many people went in and how many people went out and there’s a certain number that they can actually handle.
And what you do is you you drive into these area which is called the Hydal and you drive about 80 kilometers and there’s only one hotel.
54:12
So the hotel is at capacity.
No more people come in.
So it’s it’s it’s very interesting because even though it’s as control and as they try to make it as safe as possible, things go South.
54:31
Like I think it was a few weeks after we had left and we’d visited the desert.
We were there for two days.
We heard of nine people.
Who actually perished?
Because they got lost in the in the sand, they got lost in the in the dunes, they got lost in the in the road and and then they made mistakes, as in they separated and they didn’t have enough water, etc etc.
54:59
One mistake after another.
And Yep, people actually perished.
So the experience of going to the desert is very humbling.
But there’s something about the desert that.
It just captivates you, you know.
It catches your to me is fascinating.
55:18
The.
The pressure, you know, the readiness that is necessary.
It’s enjoyable to me, you know, like like the the the thinking of the next three or four moves.
Like if we do this right now, OK.
But if we what happens?
55:33
You know, like you’re thinking three or four moves ahead of the consequences of whatever choice you make right now, give you an example.
We found a guy and his family.
They were stuck in the sand.
And he was in the middle of a sandstorm in the desert.
55:49
And is the high doll we were, I don’t know, 60 kilometres in, No phone signal, nothing.
So we’re there.
Like, OK, we have to help them, but what if we get stuck as well.
But anyway you you kind of like, OK, this is the best scenario.
56:06
This is what we could do and we worked it out.
We actually got them on stock from the sand and and we potentially save them.
It was a very young guy that looked a little bit unprepared, bringing very little children and I don’t know, it just looked like.
56:27
He wasn’t prepared.
It’s just the way I saw it, but we were able to help them that.
I don’t know.
It’s it’s very attractive and appealing to me.
The desert.
It teaches you respecting nature and and always have a plan Ohe yeah.
56:47
Definitely, yeah, I’ve heard about that.
Is it the tackling Matan or something like that really deadly?
No one made it across sort of thing or was one of.
Yeah, on the whole journey.
57:03
It’s very hard, one of the toughest.
Ground, yeah.
Whole journey of the Silk.
Road yeah, it’s Yeah.
It’s extremely it’s extremely windy in some parts.
So you you it covers the highway.
57:18
It covers the road.
So whatever whatever grooves that were on the on the ground, they could be there now.
But three hours they’ll be gone.
And then if you don’t remember, if you don’t, if you don’t plan and and and route it, for example with your with a GPS or things like that, then it becomes complicated, it becomes difficult and and it shifts.
57:42
I mean, it’s doomes, right?
So some of the dunes changed shape, um, from one day to another.
So it doesn’t always look the same.
It’s it’s complicated.
It’s it’s a, it requires a certain kind of people to survive there.
The people who run the hotel, those are.
58:00
Those are amazing because they are 100 kilometers in, they only see tourists and they need to make sure that they don’t mess up their supply list.
You know, maybe.
She has.
They’re responsible for people and themselves.
58:17
So yeah, Diesel, all the things that keep things running, hey.
Yeah, you’re putting your life in their hands as well when you go to the hotel.
Before we.
Conclude.
Tell us a little.
Bit.
More about living in China and how it relates to your deep love for China.
58:37
Look, I came to to China in the year 2002 work as a teacher.
I actually worked in different cities before I decided to settle in the southern city of Dongguan in Guangdong.
They worked there for a translation service centre that had like some educational.
59:01
Branch as well.
And after three or four years, 2005, four years, I decided to start my own business.
So I set up my own company and I started my work with children.
59:17
So my company ran all the way to 2021.
Still exists, but because of the double reduction here in China, we closed operations.
But I just keep it open with a different business though, which is just media and and and other other stuff that we’re doing.
59:36
Through my time in China, I have done different things other than just teaching.
One of the things is I’ve done consultancy work, so I participated in different bids from the local government to before doing United Nations.
59:56
There is something called the Livable Communities Award, something held by the IFPRI.
The International forests and recreational areas, which is a branch of the United Nations that basically is a competition in between cities in which they share different ways of how they run the cities.
1:00:17
And there’s many different areas in which they they work from environment to to heritage to UH, construction, development, a whole bunch of things.
1:00:33
Now during that time, I had to work closely with the local government and we had to visit many areas of the city as a city of 10 million people, 28 districts and four core districts in the municipality.
1:00:52
And I was able to actually see how a city runs because that was the competition.
That’s what.
That’s what we needed to put together a book, a presentation on how the city works and.
Being given that behind the curtain view as to how complicated, how difficult and how important it is to to have certain guidelines and parameters, for example in green coverage of forest coverage in the cities that are so developed in the South of China, it it just blew my mind.
1:01:24
I was very fascinated with how how they run cities in in in this country and it developed a a deep understanding and a love and affection for my CD Dongguan O.
When that particular competition ended and we actually won, we won gold medal, shall I say, because we do things really, really well in Dongguan.
1:01:51
I I felt like, OK, it’s it’s great when the government does what, what else could I do?
So I started working on certain different projects to see how I could help the city.
One of the projects was for example one that was called Do the Right Thing, Do the Right Thing was like some fans, right?
1:02:09
This hand fans.
One had a thumbs up and the other one had a thumbs down and the idea was to kind of.
Create awareness and conscious as to how to be more.
How to behave better in harmoniously in community.
1:02:28
So you see people parking in the wrong place.
So you show him a card like, hey, to do the right thing.
Um, or you see people just throwing trash out the window.
Hey, do the right thing.
So that was a campaign that went on for a couple of months.
1:02:44
Didn’t really amount to much, but it’s the mindset of what I wanted to do.
I wanted to help the city.
I started a magazine for example.
There was a bilingual magazine, sort of like to bring the the foreign community and the and the Chinese community together so that we could share information and exchange.
1:03:04
It was something that I did with three other partners, but always looking at how can I make the CD better, how can we create a better society here?
Kind of like my way of giving back to the city that I gave him the opportunity to see, as I said behind the curtain, how it worked.
1:03:23
But perhaps the thing that was more significant was.
A.
A book that I put together.
I I saw that there were Rd. signs around the city with incorrect translations.
So I started taking photos and I put it together in a simple book, Um, explaining what some of the most common mistakes are somewhere, just like incorrect translations or incorrect use of words when they wanted to say something, or the other one was just and the most common one actually was just mistakes that take place at the factory.
1:03:56
So, so for example, um, a normal sign was EIT.
And you said what is EAIT?
But when you think about it, it’s just an X, right?
And somebody missed the X and it looks like an A and an I.
1:04:16
So instead of exit, they print EIT.
But that’s not translation mistake, that’s just somebody at the factory who made a mistake and plotted incorrectly in the software.
So yeah, I put together this book and I gave it to some friends in the government.
And I said, like, hey, it’ll be great if we can change this science and make the city more international, because it’s always a little bit sad to see people laughing at China, You know what I mean?
1:04:42
It’s, I didn’t like it.
So I was like, well, we could change that.
That would be great.
That was 2007, but actually nothing took place.
That just just.
One of those things now interestingly, we are celebrating this as the the Asian Games in Hangzhou, right?
1:05:00
Well, back in 2010, three years after I published the book, Guangzhou was going to be hosting the Asian Games.
And my city Dongguan, which is like 30 kilometers from Guangzhou, was going to be hosting one event, which was the weightlifting.
1:05:16
Because we have actually one of the locals was an Olympic champion in weight lifting.
So they decided that Dongguan was going to host that event, and the government has started advertising.
Oh, OK, we’re going to internationalize the city, and we’re going to change the roadsides and make them into perfect English.
1:05:37
I was unaware of this.
I didn’t know what was going on.
But a journalist was aware of my book, so he posted an editorial.
Like you guys and the government, you’ve had this book for three years and haven’t done absolutely anything.
How come you haven’t done this before?
1:05:53
Blah, blah blah, blah, blah blah.
That tells you that people can actually criticize the government in China, right?
So this journalist created this, this wrote this olpad basically criticizing the government.
And all of a sudden I was hot.
1:06:10
People wanted to know about my story and what I’d done and what this and what not.
And it became kind of like a yes, that’s true, that’s right.
But anyway, the job got done.
I wasn’t involved in it, but somebody in the Foreign Affairs Bureau was in charge of that, and they changed the signage and everything went back to being proper English.
1:06:33
So I was very happy of that.
But it kind of like became.
Like a thorn in the side.
So um, when they started another project which was called the Green Way, which is a bicycle pathway that 2000 kilometres and it’s all over Guangdong, it connects towns and cities and villages and whatnot.
1:06:57
The government wanted it to be bilingual.
So they said like, would you like to participate in this project?
I’m like sure.
So I worked for another year now, on and off writing and doing this part of consultancy work.
And I just I became part of the city.
1:07:19
I became a you know, when when you see your work printed all around the city, For example, the the CD slogan, the slogan of the city came out from my office.
They had come up with a slogan, a competition amongst teachers, and they came out with a slogan that said Dongguan’s culture is created by you.
1:07:42
And I say when they say, oh, what do you think about this slogan?
I’m like, within a second I said like, I don’t think that’s right.
I’m like, what do you mean?
Well, you have to understand that China has 5000 years of civilization.
And when you say create your create something that didn’t exist before, so you’re kind of like denying the existence of Chinas or the Dongguan civilization.
1:08:05
So I don’t think this is all that good and like, oh, but we spend so much time in this competition.
That was the winning entry, right?
And I said like.
I don’t know.
I’m just telling you what I think from the words themselves is doesn’t sound OK.
1:08:25
You’re denying the existence of the civilization.
Perhaps you were trying to say civility.
Don’t want civility is created by you.
But anyway it became a big issue and said like, OK, we need to do something, what’s a good look?
And I said, like how about the future of Dongguan depends on you.
1:08:44
So from that office, poof, that became the slogan of the city in 1520.
Minute discussion.
So again, it feels like you are.
Part of making the city, part of building the city.
1:09:01
And that’s just, that’s just who I am, you know what I mean?
It all started from 2006 and just wanted to give back and there’s many aspects that that I have been able to affect and effect to make the city better.
1:09:17
So by 2011 again, somebody.
Propose my name as an honorary citizen of Dongguan.
The thing is, they hold this event every five years, and every five years they choose different people from the community to become honorary citizens, usually people from other provinces or from other regions or from other countries.
1:09:44
And they’re very, very different reasons why people get elected.
Because you employ a lot of people, you invest a lot of things, or you have made discoveries in science and whatnot.
Others also contributions to society and that’s why I was nominated to this competition.
And in October of 2011, UM I was awarded the honorary citizen of Dongguan recognition and that basically change my life.
1:10:14
It was a different status.
It it was.
I became a bit of a celebrity in the city and I’ve tried to to honor that status ever since.
And yeah, that’s that’s just my my.
1:10:30
Quick introduction to my life in China.
Um, mostly an educator here and there trying to do the best I can to create the next generation of Chinese leaders and Chinese entrepreneurs and Chinese society that can communicate with the world in different languages.
1:10:52
So that’s been my work for the last 20-3 years.
Yeah, this this, this project of traveling around China started in January 2022 and the idea is I want to create a documentary to present it to China as a gift in 2024 when they celebrate the 75th anniversary of of the founding of the People’s Republic of China.
1:11:21
We just celebrating the 74th, so I’ve been working on this for more than a year, but I still have a year to go before I can present my my present of love to China in October 1st of next year.
That’s the reason why I’m doing it, yeah.
1:11:47
But I think, I think I’m I’m going a little bit fast in some areas because I lost in 2022.
COVID really put a dent on our plans.
We were stuck for up to four months in different places because Kovid was just wrecking havoc around the country, so it was difficult for us to move around.
1:12:10
So we wasted a bit of time.
The other thing is that beating Xinjiang, we had originally planned two to three months, but it’s just so fascinating that we ended up staying five months.
So I think in the end I’m going to put the best documentary I can, but I don’t know if I can cover everything that there is to cover in China.
1:12:33
We We’ll see, we’ll see.
You all see.
What it looks like in 2024 is basically about people.
The title is They the People.
It’s a it’s a contrast or game awards based on the American Constitution.
1:12:48
We the people, which I feel is very centric.
So I would like people to know they the people, the Chinese people.
So that’s the title of the documentary.
Fernando.
1:13:07
Munoz Bernal.
Thank you so much for educating us with your experiences and wisdom.
I am sure my listeners have enjoyed this conversation as much as I enjoyed having it with you, and we look forward to your documentary next year.
